We were not in disagreement because I am capable of holding two separate ideas in my head at the same time without nonsensically equating them, and I dislike it extremely when a specific point can't be discussed without first addressing something unrelated that ought to go without saying. I won't say that common folk have the same value as the people whose capture was under discussion because broadly speaking I'll give most people, common or otherwise, the benefit of the doubt that it would be a ghastly and untrue thing to say.
The reasoning behind who is and is not captured as a prisoner of war, in this war, is not about their value as people and should under no circumstances suggest to you that they are valued more than anyone else as people. They are scum whose innate worth is less than that of the Blight. They are men and women whose power or position would have allowed them to fight against Corypheus—something that many people with less have been willing to do—and instead they looked at the rest of us, they looked at what Corypheus is doing, and they decided that our lives are collectively worth less than the outside chance that knowingly working towards our annihilation will personally benefit them. Their only value is how they can be used and they can and should be executed the instant that they outlive that usefulness. If they survive the war to do anything other than stand trial for war crimes, that will be an injustice to those who died in their place worth fighting against, but arguing that anyone else deserves their treatment right now does a terrible disservice to anyone who isn't presently facing rightful execution, and I won't be finger-wagged into saying otherwise by anyone.
We were not arguing. Your point wasn't wrong, it simply wasn't relevant to the discussion at hand, which was the matter of what we do with scum we can use, and the cost-benefit analysis of taking such risks. Pointing out that it wasn't relevant because the things being discussed were entirely different isn't arguing against you. Someone isn't arguing against you simply because you don't like what they have to say or how they happen to say it. I don't bother discussing ideas with people whose opinions I disregard, so I don't know why I'm bothering writing this to someone who couldn't deign to hear mine when I said it the first time. Maker, you aren't even reading it. What's the point.
( although gwenaëlle had decided against sending this, she'd left it addressed on her desk; guilfoyle delivers it along with a number of other minor pieces of correspondence it had been among. )
[ Kitty looks at this, and reads it several times, and debates whether to answer it or to scream until she's red in the face. It's certainly not what she was hoping for - what she was hoping for was for Gwen to come over and for them to chat over tea - but, well...It's at least an overture. And she's not going to reject that. Not when she knows that overtures are bloody hard for Gwen to make.
And so she sits down and writes a response. Well, writes several responses, really. This is the one she settles on, though.
Her hand is neat and even, the formatting of the letter precise and formal. This is a girl who was trained to write a business letter. ]
Dear Gwenaelle,
What I 'dislike extremely' is hypocrisy. I know that where I came from matters not at all here, but my life (real or not) was spent hearing silver-tongued liars murmur about how important commoners like me were to the Empire, even as they tortured and hurt us and killed us in the streets and never faced a bit of punishment for it. Is that what the Inquisition is going to become? Is that what it is, even now? Is that what I'm fighting for? Because if it is, if we're the sort of people who refuse to name our hideous deeds - if we're the sort of people who murmur about how important commoners are even as we cut them down - then I've no use for the Inquisition at all.
I know that's not what you were talking about. I know you were trying to explain the reasoning. But it is what I am talking about. In truth, I do not care about battle tactics; I do not care about what we do with the scum we can use or not use or anything of the sort. What I care about is whether or not the Inquisition is made up of liars. I care about whether I can trust any of these people at all.
The other thing I dislike is being called stupid and ignorant. I am not stupid or ignorant. Hearing that, especially from the mouth of someone like you, is a miserable, awful thing; and I do not deserve to be made to feel awful simply because my concerns diverge from yours. I especially do not deserve to be called it in front of everyone, where everyone can hear, because people respect your opinions and hold them in high regard, and so if the words come from your mouth they will also begin to think of me as such.
( the main lesson that gwenaëlle has taken away from this, if she's honest, is that she needs to properly dispose of mail she doesn't intend to send. )
K.
Your point itself isn't bad—and it'd stand whether I thought so or not, no one within the Inquisition gives a fuck what I think, and outside of it I rather prove your point by being irrelevant without the right surname attached, that other twat banging on knew all about Lady Vauquelin, but let's not pretend that Baudin will get me anywhere near as far in the world—but you do it a disservice by making it so easy to dismiss you by ignoring the context in which you argue it.
No one has to defend the Inquisition's position on who matters if you steadfastly argue it in a conversation regarding how we handle war criminals and the red lyrium creatures they drive ahead of themselves as cannonfodder. What you're doing is pissing into the wind in the hopes of breaking a drought. You don't have to care about battle tactics, but battle tactics are expressly and explicitly what was being discussed. Because we are going into a battle. For the Inquisition, which for all its many flaws—and they are many, and they are probably going to doom us, but as no one else is doing fuck all about Corypheus this is what we have—has never claimed to be here to do anything but stop Corypheus. The Inquisition was formed to find out who murdered Justinia, figure out what the bloody hell is going on with the massive glowing sky vagina, and deal with those things. That is its purpose, and any other good it does is incidental—that has been long since proven.
What you're fighting for is survival. That's what we're all fighting for. The world is in a state of massive upheaval and we have a chance, a very slim chance judging by what I see all around me but a chance nevertheless, to not only stop our annihilation but to define what happens next. The Inquisition plays a role, but we've all seen what that role is. Stabilizing Thedas isn't the same thing as revolutionizing it. I will say this: on an individual level, I'm sure that it has as many hypocrites as it does idealists, but institutionally, the Inquisition has writhed in place like a bleating animal trying to avoid being forced to take any fucking stance, controversial or otherwise, beyond "we don't wish the world to end". You can't have hypocrisy where you don't even have the balls to lie in the first place. Don't pin your ideals to the Inquisition; I can say from experience it will only disappoint you.
Ask the right questions. Who are we sending to the front lines, and why? What will the Inquisition do if our people are taken prisoner? Thranduil gave you a very fine opening that you ignored when he noted that a prisoner our enemy values has worth in potential prisoner exchanges; who do you think the Inquisition would be prepared to trade such a resource for? Who do you think would simply be told not to allow themselves to be taken alive? That's a conversation worth having. Shard-bearers can't be allowed to fall into Venatori hands, but would we rescue rifters if it looked easier to simply burn down the place they were being held and ensure no intelligence could be taken from it? These are better questions. They address what it is you truly wish to know, which is something what you were doing before did not.
If you want to know if the Inquisition, institutionally, values the lives of the common folk: not more than it values safe familiarity, and it never will. Knowing what the people next to you care about seems quite important, given that. There is no tactical advantage to taking rank and file prisoners from Corypheus's army both because Corypheus cares about them significantly less than even the Inquisition's bleeding heart free-thinkers and because the most likely outcome is that they spread red lyrium blight throughout the Gallows and we all die, pointlessly. How people feel about that is an easy get: we get to blame Corypheus no matter what. No one has to take responsibility for what they think of that because he did the hard part already. He's destroying his own army from the inside out because all they are to him is weapons, and we have no cure to offer that but death, and so that absolves us of responsibility. Not you, probably, you're very responsible, but you see what I mean: the water here is very fucking muddy. What we're prepared to do—or not do—for those fighting against him is a harder thing to simplify away from us.
It demands a better answer. It at least demands some thought.
I ought to say - because it ought to be said - that I am not in fact fighting for survival. I am a Rifter; my lifespan, if what others have told me is true, is likely to be no more than a few years. At any point I could fade into nothing after losing my mind and personality. For someone like me to fight for survival,is completely ludicrous. Of course - I am sure that, upon reading this, you are mentally preparing a very profane reminder that I am no one special, that anyone can die at any time; but that is precisely the point, is it not? There is no point fighting for survival when, at the end of the day, no one survives into the long term.
So: a bit of thought, then. A few questions. I think it is worth asking ourselves: should our primary task truly be to stabilize Thedas? Obviously, Corypheus is dreadful; he is cruel, and terrible, and uses people awfully and abominably. But so, too, does the Empress of Orlais. So, too, does the Queen of Ferelden, and the Divine, and the Black Divine, and the Archon, and every person who holds power. We fight to stabilize Thedas - and then what? It goes back to how it was before? With all the diseases it had before, all the nasty creeping illnesses that gave rise to the likes of Corypheus? With elves crushed under the boots of their masters, with the poor beaten and killed for being poor, with nobles told 'you're grand because of your father' and peasants told 'you're nothing because of your father'? Is that worth spending our few years of life on?
These are real questions. I am not asking them because I believe the answer is 'no'. But you say we are here to stabilize instead of revolutionize. Why? Whom, truly, does that benefit? It certainly does not benefit the slaves up in Tevinter, nor the elves of the Alienage, nor the soldier in the field who gives up his/her life for this fight and will never see tomorrow, who was born in filth and is forced to die in filth because this world permits nothing else.
Sincerely, Kathleen Jones
P.S.-- Please don't send back a great lot of 'you're a Rifter & barely even know this world & how dare you criticize us' because if you do I will SCREAM and not only will I scream I will do so directly into your ear and it will be very painful.
( if kitty sees no future, then there's nothing else to offer her. the world not ending benefits everyone, but it's only an opportunity for change in that upheaval, in who is left standing afterwards. the inquisition won't do it. she won't lie to her about that to make her fight. )
Then let's not talk about the Inquisition. Let's talk about a future that goes beyond what they're offering. I'm sure you have thoughts on that, haven't you?
Sincerely, Kathleen Jones
P.S.-- That letter was pathetically short, and completely a waste of paper. Come on; I know you've always got far more to say than that. Did your hand cramp up or something? Were you interrupted? Were you kidnapped?
( —as seamlessly as if they'd been speaking already: )
If you don't see a future past the Inquisition—and all the Inquisition offers is that there'll be one, that's it's one job—there doesn't seem much purpose to wasting a great deal of paper discussing what I plan to do or not. Also, ( frankly, ) I'd be a fucking idiot to write any of that down.
On the Inquisition's behalf I quite literally once went to my lord's estate to collect letters he'd intercepted, made copies of and allowed to be delivered in their original form.
Absolutely all of my letters were delivered by messenger.
( obviously. what, gwenaëlle was going to carry them down herself? no. and guilfoyle handles most of her correspondence, and is entirely trustworthy, but he's also got knees old enough to have little knee grandchildren and shouldn't be bothered for everything. )
But no. Of course not. What I care about isn't what we were discussing.
I don't see what the point is of discussing them if it's not practical. I mean—
( the grimace is audible in her exhale. )
I don't believe any of what you said about rifters. My entire life would be pointless if I did, I might as well give up now. But if you believe it, then I don't see what the practical benefit is to considering those things now. And I don't see why I'd discuss them other than to purpose.
Just because you didn't have a person in your life any longer? The world would still be the same even if he died. There'd still be all the same injustices.
![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
cease and desist notice!!!!
Date: 2018-11-13 05:47 am (UTC)K.
We were not in disagreement because I am capable of holding two separate ideas in my head at the same time without nonsensically equating them, and I dislike it extremely when a specific point can't be discussed without first addressing something unrelated that ought to go without saying. I won't say that common folk have the same value as the people whose capture was under discussion because broadly speaking I'll give most people, common or otherwise, the benefit of the doubt that it would be a ghastly and untrue thing to say.
The reasoning behind who is and is not captured as a prisoner of war, in this war, is not about their value as people and should under no circumstances suggest to you that they are valued more than anyone else as people. They are scum whose innate worth is less than that of the Blight. They are men and women whose power or position would have allowed them to fight against Corypheus—something that many people with less have been willing to do—and instead they looked at the rest of us, they looked at what Corypheus is doing, and they decided that our lives are collectively worth less than the outside chance that knowingly working towards our annihilation will personally benefit them. Their only value is how they can be used and they can and should be executed the instant that they outlive that usefulness. If they survive the war to do anything other than stand trial for war crimes, that will be an injustice to those who died in their place worth fighting against, but arguing that anyone else deserves their treatment right now does a terrible disservice to anyone who isn't presently facing rightful execution, and I won't be finger-wagged into saying otherwise by anyone.
We were not arguing. Your point wasn't wrong, it simply wasn't relevant to the discussion at hand, which was the matter of what we do with scum we can use, and the cost-benefit analysis of taking such risks. Pointing out that it wasn't relevant because the things being discussed were entirely different isn't arguing against you. Someone isn't arguing against you simply because you don't like what they have to say or how they happen to say it. I don't bother discussing ideas with people whose opinions I disregard, so I don't know why I'm bothering writing this to someone who couldn't deign to hear mine when I said it the first time. Maker, you aren't even reading it. What's the point.
( although gwenaëlle had decided against sending this, she'd left it addressed on her desk; guilfoyle delivers it along with a number of other minor pieces of correspondence it had been among. )
bless guilfoyle
Date: 2018-11-13 01:50 pm (UTC)And so she sits down and writes a response. Well, writes several responses, really. This is the one she settles on, though.
Her hand is neat and even, the formatting of the letter precise and formal. This is a girl who was trained to write a business letter. ]
Dear Gwenaelle,
What I 'dislike extremely' is hypocrisy. I know that where I came from matters not at all here, but my life (real or not) was spent hearing silver-tongued liars murmur about how important commoners like me were to the Empire, even as they tortured and hurt us and killed us in the streets and never faced a bit of punishment for it. Is that what the Inquisition is going to become? Is that what it is, even now? Is that what I'm fighting for? Because if it is, if we're the sort of people who refuse to name our hideous deeds - if we're the sort of people who murmur about how important commoners are even as we cut them down - then I've no use for the Inquisition at all.
I know that's not what you were talking about. I know you were trying to explain the reasoning. But it is what I am talking about. In truth, I do not care about battle tactics; I do not care about what we do with the scum we can use or not use or anything of the sort. What I care about is whether or not the Inquisition is made up of liars. I care about whether I can trust any of these people at all.
The other thing I dislike is being called stupid and ignorant. I am not stupid or ignorant. Hearing that, especially from the mouth of someone like you, is a miserable, awful thing; and I do not deserve to be made to feel awful simply because my concerns diverge from yours. I especially do not deserve to be called it in front of everyone, where everyone can hear, because people respect your opinions and hold them in high regard, and so if the words come from your mouth they will also begin to think of me as such.
Sincerely,
Kathleen Jones
no subject
Date: 2018-11-16 11:12 am (UTC)K.
Your point itself isn't bad—and it'd stand whether I thought so or not, no one within the Inquisition gives a fuck what I think, and outside of it I rather prove your point by being irrelevant without the right surname attached, that other twat banging on knew all about Lady Vauquelin, but let's not pretend that Baudin will get me anywhere near as far in the world—but you do it a disservice by making it so easy to dismiss you by ignoring the context in which you argue it.
No one has to defend the Inquisition's position on who matters if you steadfastly argue it in a conversation regarding how we handle war criminals and the red lyrium creatures they drive ahead of themselves as cannonfodder. What you're doing is pissing into the wind in the hopes of breaking a drought. You don't have to care about battle tactics, but battle tactics are expressly and explicitly what was being discussed. Because we are going into a battle. For the Inquisition, which for all its many flaws—and they are many, and they are probably going to doom us, but as no one else is doing fuck all about Corypheus this is what we have—has never claimed to be here to do anything but stop Corypheus. The Inquisition was formed to find out who murdered Justinia, figure out what the bloody hell is going on with the massive glowing sky vagina, and deal with those things. That is its purpose, and any other good it does is incidental—that has been long since proven.
What you're fighting for is survival. That's what we're all fighting for. The world is in a state of massive upheaval and we have a chance, a very slim chance judging by what I see all around me but a chance nevertheless, to not only stop our annihilation but to define what happens next. The Inquisition plays a role, but we've all seen what that role is. Stabilizing Thedas isn't the same thing as revolutionizing it. I will say this: on an individual level, I'm sure that it has as many hypocrites as it does idealists, but institutionally, the Inquisition has writhed in place like a bleating animal trying to avoid being forced to take any fucking stance, controversial or otherwise, beyond "we don't wish the world to end". You can't have hypocrisy where you don't even have the balls to lie in the first place. Don't pin your ideals to the Inquisition; I can say from experience it will only disappoint you.
Ask the right questions. Who are we sending to the front lines, and why? What will the Inquisition do if our people are taken prisoner? Thranduil gave you a very fine opening that you ignored when he noted that a prisoner our enemy values has worth in potential prisoner exchanges; who do you think the Inquisition would be prepared to trade such a resource for? Who do you think would simply be told not to allow themselves to be taken alive? That's a conversation worth having. Shard-bearers can't be allowed to fall into Venatori hands, but would we rescue rifters if it looked easier to simply burn down the place they were being held and ensure no intelligence could be taken from it? These are better questions. They address what it is you truly wish to know, which is something what you were doing before did not.
If you want to know if the Inquisition, institutionally, values the lives of the common folk: not more than it values safe familiarity, and it never will. Knowing what the people next to you care about seems quite important, given that. There is no tactical advantage to taking rank and file prisoners from Corypheus's army both because Corypheus cares about them significantly less than even the Inquisition's bleeding heart free-thinkers and because the most likely outcome is that they spread red lyrium blight throughout the Gallows and we all die, pointlessly. How people feel about that is an easy get: we get to blame Corypheus no matter what. No one has to take responsibility for what they think of that because he did the hard part already. He's destroying his own army from the inside out because all they are to him is weapons, and we have no cure to offer that but death, and so that absolves us of responsibility. Not you, probably, you're very responsible, but you see what I mean: the water here is very fucking muddy. What we're prepared to do—or not do—for those fighting against him is a harder thing to simplify away from us.
It demands a better answer. It at least demands some thought.
G.
no subject
Date: 2018-11-16 01:40 pm (UTC)I ought to say - because it ought to be said - that I am not in fact fighting for survival. I am a Rifter; my lifespan, if what others have told me is true, is likely to be no more than a few years. At any point I could fade into nothing after losing my mind and personality. For someone like me to fight for survival,is completely ludicrous. Of course - I am sure that, upon reading this, you are mentally preparing a very profane reminder that I am no one special, that anyone can die at any time; but that is precisely the point, is it not? There is no point fighting for survival when, at the end of the day, no one survives into the long term.
So: a bit of thought, then. A few questions. I think it is worth asking ourselves: should our primary task truly be to stabilize Thedas? Obviously, Corypheus is dreadful; he is cruel, and terrible, and uses people awfully and abominably. But so, too, does the Empress of Orlais. So, too, does the Queen of Ferelden, and the Divine, and the Black Divine, and the Archon, and every person who holds power. We fight to stabilize Thedas - and then what? It goes back to how it was before? With all the diseases it had before, all the nasty creeping illnesses that gave rise to the likes of Corypheus? With elves crushed under the boots of their masters, with the poor beaten and killed for being poor, with nobles told 'you're grand because of your father' and peasants told 'you're nothing because of your father'? Is that worth spending our few years of life on?
These are real questions. I am not asking them because I believe the answer is 'no'. But you say we are here to stabilize instead of revolutionize. Why? Whom, truly, does that benefit? It certainly does not benefit the slaves up in Tevinter, nor the elves of the Alienage, nor the soldier in the field who gives up his/her life for this fight and will never see tomorrow, who was born in filth and is forced to die in filth because this world permits nothing else.
Sincerely,
Kathleen Jones
P.S.-- Please don't send back a great lot of 'you're a Rifter & barely even know this world & how dare you criticize us' because if you do I will SCREAM and not only will I scream I will do so directly into your ear and it will be very painful.
no subject
Date: 2018-11-16 05:49 pm (UTC)I said that's all the Inquisition will do.
G.
( if kitty sees no future, then there's nothing else to offer her. the world not ending benefits everyone, but it's only an opportunity for change in that upheaval, in who is left standing afterwards. the inquisition won't do it. she won't lie to her about that to make her fight. )
no subject
Date: 2018-11-16 05:53 pm (UTC)Then let's not talk about the Inquisition. Let's talk about a future that goes beyond what they're offering. I'm sure you have thoughts on that, haven't you?
Sincerely,
Kathleen Jones
P.S.-- That letter was pathetically short, and completely a waste of paper. Come on; I know you've always got far more to say than that. Did your hand cramp up or something? Were you interrupted? Were you kidnapped?
crystal.
Date: 2018-11-18 01:30 am (UTC)If you don't see a future past the Inquisition—and all the Inquisition offers is that there'll be one, that's it's one job—there doesn't seem much purpose to wasting a great deal of paper discussing what I plan to do or not. Also, ( frankly, ) I'd be a fucking idiot to write any of that down.
crystal.
Date: 2018-11-18 01:38 am (UTC)I always burn letters after I get 'em.
crystal. tmw all my icons are variations on "distressed" or "vaguely sexy".
Date: 2018-11-18 01:40 am (UTC)smoulder at me
Date: 2018-11-18 01:53 am (UTC)[ A little huff. ]
Honestly, the only thing you care about is stopping Corypheus?
SMOULDERS
Date: 2018-11-18 01:55 am (UTC)( obviously. what, gwenaëlle was going to carry them down herself? no. and guilfoyle handles most of her correspondence, and is entirely trustworthy, but he's also got knees old enough to have little knee grandchildren and shouldn't be bothered for everything. )
But no. Of course not. What I care about isn't what we were discussing.
no subject
Date: 2018-11-18 02:02 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2018-11-18 02:09 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2018-11-18 02:25 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2018-11-18 02:27 am (UTC)( the grimace is audible in her exhale. )
I don't believe any of what you said about rifters. My entire life would be pointless if I did, I might as well give up now. But if you believe it, then I don't see what the practical benefit is to considering those things now. And I don't see why I'd discuss them other than to purpose.
no subject
Date: 2018-11-18 11:08 am (UTC)[ Her voice is incredulous. ]
Why would your life be pointless?
no subject
Date: 2018-11-18 11:10 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2018-11-18 11:16 am (UTC)[ Here she sounds a touch dismissive. Kitty's views on human relationships are not exactly...indulgent or positive. ]
Thranduil is lovely, but he's hardly necessary to give your life purpose.
no subject
Date: 2018-11-18 11:17 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2018-11-18 11:18 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2018-11-18 11:18 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2018-11-18 11:19 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2018-11-18 11:20 am (UTC)( a genuine question. )
Of course I'd care about different things.
no subject
Date: 2018-11-18 11:22 am (UTC)Just because you didn't have a person in your life any longer? The world would still be the same even if he died. There'd still be all the same injustices.
no subject
Date: 2018-11-18 11:24 am (UTC)( in much the same tone as kitty spoke of the marriage thing, and just as unintentionally revealing; she isn't mirroring it on purpose. )
It would be a different life. I wouldn't lead it the same way. I don't know what it would look like.
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