[ This isn't something Kitty cares about so much. But she can tell that Gwen does, and it's so rare that Gwen seems to care about anything that she'd have to be a real arsehole not to engage. So. ]
Wouldn't it be better if people didn't get remembered? If we focused on - you know - just keeping ideas alive, instead of memories of people?
Well, yes, obviously, ( that's nothing gwenaëlle's going to argue, the idea of being remembered for anything brings her out in hives, ) but that isn't how people work. You can't collectively make everyone in the world not care about other people without making the world worse, probably.
But that's—we don't have to focus on it. No one fucking focuses on it. ( the cussing is pure punctuation, at this point; she sounds rueful, if anything. she knows no one cares about this. she doesn't for a moment believe kitty is listening to her because she thinks this matters. ) It's not a thing that we make happen, it's natural, it's how people are, it's what happens. Whole religions form because people love a good fucking story. That's how ideas survive, people are how, people remember what other people taught them, they remember things that they saw, they act on those things. Someone's brave so a hundred other people are brave, too. The Herald died, and people kept coming to the Inquisition to fight because they had a symbol when the Inquisition didn't have much more than that. And they became what the Inquisition has.
I'm not arguing that it's important to do, or even that every single person has to care about it, it's just...something that's worth understanding, because it's better if someone does. If someone's thinking about it. And paying attention to it. If it's literally only me, that's fine, but just because it isn't what you're doing doesn't mean it isn't important. I can't do the things you do, either.
[ Kitty chews a bit on her lower lip. All this is...awfully heady, awfully complex for her, though she'd sooner die than admit she can't keep up with something. ]
But also, empires crush people in the name of wicked men who created their own wicked legend. That's what happened at home.
And in Orlais, and in Tevinter, and every other fucking place, probably. Corypheus is doing it right now. Celene sitting on her throne handing out new rights to elves that she's never going to enforce like everyone's just forgotten that fisting Briala didn't stop her from slaughtering half of Halamshiral.
( OH MY GOD, GWEN. )
Telling stories isn't inherently good or bad, it's just...natural. And like anything, it can be twisted and abused, and that it is, constantly, is my point. It's hard to fight that if you don't understand how it's happening, if you've got nothing to say instead. That's why I started writing about the Inquisition in the first place, when I was doing that—the Inquisition isn't a super power, it doesn't have the kind of influence it needs to do its job, that's why it makes all of these bullshit concessions and compromises. Because it doesn't have a choice. It's one thing to bravely die for your own convictions, but it's a different thing entirely to consign the entire world to death for them—it had the Herald and she fucking died, it could have all fallen apart right then. There was no symbol, it had to become its own myth.
People...need to be shown something can be done, in order to do it. Not everyone, or no one would ever show them anything, but en masse. Someone has to be brave. Someone has to have a different idea. The idea that wins isn't always the best or the rightest, so it's sort of useful if the best or rightest ideas have a fighting chance.
[ Her voice is slightly horrified. Kitty's spent enough time mixing with thieves and prostitutes and other low sorts that she understands "fisting," but not nearly enough that profanity of that vileness doesn't shock her. But then Gwen goes on talking, which gives Kitty enough time to recover from her middle-class fluster; she goes on - ]
Well. I find that propaganda's more often used for wicked ends than for good ones.
We're not just talking about propaganda. ( impatiently. ) The fact propaganda exists is why this is important, not an argument to shut your eyes and be ignorant. There's never an argument to be ignorant. Much of the time, what we're discussing isn't at all deliberate, and much of the time, that makes it easy to take advantage of.
I mean, what sort of argument is that? "People are taken advantage of all the time, so it's better not to understand anything."
I do know next to nothing about you. Because you do the same thing every single person does, you choose what you show people. I'm not saying that you, personally, have to go out and become a propagandist. Or that you should drop whatever it is you're doing in order to concentrate instead on this. All I'm saying is that it does matter, and you seem very determined to just—
( a sound of frustration. )
Manipulating people with lies is bad! Yes! Understanding how that's done is useful. Someone should care!
You know plenty about me. I've been utterly forthcoming with you - you just haven't been very interested.
[ Then she takes a breath and tries to get her spike of irritation under control. Quieter, slower, more firmly: ]
Look, everything I know, I've had to fight to know, 'cause no one likes for a girl like me to be educated. So I don't like it when I get accused of being willfully ignorant. All right? Please don't say that, even if you're trying to prove a point, 'cause it really gets under my skin. And I do care how manipulation is done; I'm just saying that there's ways that you can live without doing it, and that it oughtn't be necessary.
I'm not dismissing you. Honestly, Gwen, this is what got us into that original argument in the first place. When I state my viewpoint, you immediately jump to oh, you're not listening to me. I can listen to you without gobbling up your opinions and agreeing with them.
( there's an actual slam of the crystal down, and audible footsteps. a long, necessary pause, on the other end of which gwenaëlle counts backwards from fifty. when she returns: )
[ Kitty clenches her teeth as well, struggling to swallow the urge to scold Gwen like a child for her behavior. The woman is simply strange, Kitty reminds herself; she's strange, but means well. Chastising her for being strange won't get anyone anywhere.
So. ]
That performance is a part of life. That people represent themselves in certain ways, and that people pick up ideas about other people regardless, so image management is important.
( the small sound of disbelief on the other end is muted, disappointed. hurt, which feels stupid, but makes her less inclined to be sorry for hurting kitty back. )
You think I'm shallow and the only thing I care about is appearances. So what's important is that now I know that and I don't know that I should waste any further breath that you can just use to decide my opinion is whatever you like.
All you took from everything I said was 'image management is important'? That's what you think I'm talking about?
( most of the time, gwenaëlle really is just sort of an angry lunatic, which can make it harder to tell how unsubtly she wears her heart on her sleeve. her heart is an asshole, like the rest of her. in a way, the hurt in moments like this only underscores the general straightforwardness of the rest of her. there's very little dissembling. she just feels things, immensely. )
I don't bloody know! That was about seven different speeches of five minutes each, wasn't it. Have you ever thought that maybe the problem's less that I'm not listening and more that you're saying a lot of stuff that's coming right out of your head without much attention being paid to whether or not I'll understand it? It's not always the other person's fault!
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timeasmymeasure
no subject
Date: 2018-11-23 08:02 am (UTC)[ This isn't something Kitty cares about so much. But she can tell that Gwen does, and it's so rare that Gwen seems to care about anything that she'd have to be a real arsehole not to engage. So. ]
Wouldn't it be better if people didn't get remembered? If we focused on - you know - just keeping ideas alive, instead of memories of people?
no subject
Date: 2018-11-23 08:09 am (UTC)But that's—we don't have to focus on it. No one fucking focuses on it. ( the cussing is pure punctuation, at this point; she sounds rueful, if anything. she knows no one cares about this. she doesn't for a moment believe kitty is listening to her because she thinks this matters. ) It's not a thing that we make happen, it's natural, it's how people are, it's what happens. Whole religions form because people love a good fucking story. That's how ideas survive, people are how, people remember what other people taught them, they remember things that they saw, they act on those things. Someone's brave so a hundred other people are brave, too. The Herald died, and people kept coming to the Inquisition to fight because they had a symbol when the Inquisition didn't have much more than that. And they became what the Inquisition has.
I'm not arguing that it's important to do, or even that every single person has to care about it, it's just...something that's worth understanding, because it's better if someone does. If someone's thinking about it. And paying attention to it. If it's literally only me, that's fine, but just because it isn't what you're doing doesn't mean it isn't important. I can't do the things you do, either.
no subject
Date: 2018-11-23 08:13 am (UTC)[ Kitty chews a bit on her lower lip. All this is...awfully heady, awfully complex for her, though she'd sooner die than admit she can't keep up with something. ]
But also, empires crush people in the name of wicked men who created their own wicked legend. That's what happened at home.
no subject
Date: 2018-11-23 08:21 am (UTC)( OH MY GOD, GWEN. )
Telling stories isn't inherently good or bad, it's just...natural. And like anything, it can be twisted and abused, and that it is, constantly, is my point. It's hard to fight that if you don't understand how it's happening, if you've got nothing to say instead. That's why I started writing about the Inquisition in the first place, when I was doing that—the Inquisition isn't a super power, it doesn't have the kind of influence it needs to do its job, that's why it makes all of these bullshit concessions and compromises. Because it doesn't have a choice. It's one thing to bravely die for your own convictions, but it's a different thing entirely to consign the entire world to death for them—it had the Herald and she fucking died, it could have all fallen apart right then. There was no symbol, it had to become its own myth.
People...need to be shown something can be done, in order to do it. Not everyone, or no one would ever show them anything, but en masse. Someone has to be brave. Someone has to have a different idea. The idea that wins isn't always the best or the rightest, so it's sort of useful if the best or rightest ideas have a fighting chance.
no subject
Date: 2018-11-23 09:22 am (UTC)[ Her voice is slightly horrified. Kitty's spent enough time mixing with thieves and prostitutes and other low sorts that she understands "fisting," but not nearly enough that profanity of that vileness doesn't shock her. But then Gwen goes on talking, which gives Kitty enough time to recover from her middle-class fluster; she goes on - ]
Well. I find that propaganda's more often used for wicked ends than for good ones.
no subject
Date: 2018-11-23 09:27 am (UTC)I mean, what sort of argument is that? "People are taken advantage of all the time, so it's better not to understand anything."
no subject
Date: 2018-11-23 09:29 am (UTC)I hope you don't actually think I'm arguing that people ought to stay ignorant.
no subject
Date: 2018-11-23 09:30 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2018-11-23 09:32 am (UTC)If you think that - honestly think that - then you know nothing at all about me.
no subject
Date: 2018-11-23 09:35 am (UTC)( a sound of frustration. )
Manipulating people with lies is bad! Yes! Understanding how that's done is useful. Someone should care!
no subject
Date: 2018-11-23 09:39 am (UTC)[ Then she takes a breath and tries to get her spike of irritation under control. Quieter, slower, more firmly: ]
Look, everything I know, I've had to fight to know, 'cause no one likes for a girl like me to be educated. So I don't like it when I get accused of being willfully ignorant. All right? Please don't say that, even if you're trying to prove a point, 'cause it really gets under my skin. And I do care how manipulation is done; I'm just saying that there's ways that you can live without doing it, and that it oughtn't be necessary.
no subject
Date: 2018-11-23 09:41 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2018-11-23 09:44 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2018-11-23 09:45 am (UTC)( there's an actual slam of the crystal down, and audible footsteps. a long, necessary pause, on the other end of which gwenaëlle counts backwards from fifty. when she returns: )
Tell me what you think I'm saying.
no subject
Date: 2018-11-23 09:50 am (UTC)So. ]
That performance is a part of life. That people represent themselves in certain ways, and that people pick up ideas about other people regardless, so image management is important.
no subject
Date: 2018-11-23 09:52 am (UTC)That's not what's important about that.
no subject
Date: 2018-11-23 09:53 am (UTC)Then what's important.
no subject
Date: 2018-11-23 09:54 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2018-11-23 09:55 am (UTC)No, apparently I was simply too ignorant to understand. So please, explain to me.
no subject
Date: 2018-11-23 09:57 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2018-11-23 10:02 am (UTC)How'd you come to that conclusion, exactly?
no subject
Date: 2018-11-23 10:06 am (UTC)( most of the time, gwenaëlle really is just sort of an angry lunatic, which can make it harder to tell how unsubtly she wears her heart on her sleeve. her heart is an asshole, like the rest of her. in a way, the hurt in moments like this only underscores the general straightforwardness of the rest of her. there's very little dissembling. she just feels things, immensely. )
no subject
Date: 2018-11-23 10:23 am (UTC)I don't bloody know! That was about seven different speeches of five minutes each, wasn't it. Have you ever thought that maybe the problem's less that I'm not listening and more that you're saying a lot of stuff that's coming right out of your head without much attention being paid to whether or not I'll understand it? It's not always the other person's fault!
no subject
Date: 2018-11-23 10:24 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2018-11-23 10:31 am (UTC)(no subject)
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