Why do you get to decide that someone else making a choice isn't true, but yours was? That someone else improving their life is wrong, but it's all right when you did it?
No - I was false back then. This is who I am. Back then, keeping my head down and saying "please sir" and "sorry ma'am" and licking boots, that was false.
Yes, it does. And making a choice is something deliberate, too, they're not mutually exclusive, you don't have to be a fuckwit to be honest or we wouldn't be speaking because you are very honest and you can just ask Darton's cheap slut how much time I have for idiots.
Don't call someone a slut. Life's altogether too short for women to be shaming one another over sex.
[ Also, who the hell is Darton, etc. ]
Anyway, I don't know, I'm not really all that fussed about it one way or the other. At the end of the day, I don't much care about the stories people tell; I care about what people do quite a bit more.
( gwenaëlle. nevermind that, bethany isn't even here any more—not that she's paid enough heed to know it. moving on: )
That's what I'm saying, they're the same thing. Sometimes. Not all the time, obviously, people do actually lie and are fucking awful, but—look, when we're dead, that's all that's left. When you die, what people remember isn't...real, it isn't exact, it isn't...who you were. It's the story you told of yourself. Or it's the story that they told themselves about you. And we all do it, even if that isn't what we call it. Unless you're going up to every single person that you meet and explaining every single facet of yourself as a person to them, you're choosing what you show people.
And it matters. It does matter. Understanding that matters, because how people see things matters. It's so easy to undo the good someone does by having a better story. You can make people hurt themselves believing they don't have a choice, because something else is worse, something else you keep them too afraid to see past, and then they can't organise themselves, because there's no point. You can't counteract that without understanding it.
( it's at this point that gwenaëlle realises she's got slightly carried away, and clears her throat. )
[ This isn't something Kitty cares about so much. But she can tell that Gwen does, and it's so rare that Gwen seems to care about anything that she'd have to be a real arsehole not to engage. So. ]
Wouldn't it be better if people didn't get remembered? If we focused on - you know - just keeping ideas alive, instead of memories of people?
Well, yes, obviously, ( that's nothing gwenaëlle's going to argue, the idea of being remembered for anything brings her out in hives, ) but that isn't how people work. You can't collectively make everyone in the world not care about other people without making the world worse, probably.
But that's—we don't have to focus on it. No one fucking focuses on it. ( the cussing is pure punctuation, at this point; she sounds rueful, if anything. she knows no one cares about this. she doesn't for a moment believe kitty is listening to her because she thinks this matters. ) It's not a thing that we make happen, it's natural, it's how people are, it's what happens. Whole religions form because people love a good fucking story. That's how ideas survive, people are how, people remember what other people taught them, they remember things that they saw, they act on those things. Someone's brave so a hundred other people are brave, too. The Herald died, and people kept coming to the Inquisition to fight because they had a symbol when the Inquisition didn't have much more than that. And they became what the Inquisition has.
I'm not arguing that it's important to do, or even that every single person has to care about it, it's just...something that's worth understanding, because it's better if someone does. If someone's thinking about it. And paying attention to it. If it's literally only me, that's fine, but just because it isn't what you're doing doesn't mean it isn't important. I can't do the things you do, either.
[ Kitty chews a bit on her lower lip. All this is...awfully heady, awfully complex for her, though she'd sooner die than admit she can't keep up with something. ]
But also, empires crush people in the name of wicked men who created their own wicked legend. That's what happened at home.
And in Orlais, and in Tevinter, and every other fucking place, probably. Corypheus is doing it right now. Celene sitting on her throne handing out new rights to elves that she's never going to enforce like everyone's just forgotten that fisting Briala didn't stop her from slaughtering half of Halamshiral.
( OH MY GOD, GWEN. )
Telling stories isn't inherently good or bad, it's just...natural. And like anything, it can be twisted and abused, and that it is, constantly, is my point. It's hard to fight that if you don't understand how it's happening, if you've got nothing to say instead. That's why I started writing about the Inquisition in the first place, when I was doing that—the Inquisition isn't a super power, it doesn't have the kind of influence it needs to do its job, that's why it makes all of these bullshit concessions and compromises. Because it doesn't have a choice. It's one thing to bravely die for your own convictions, but it's a different thing entirely to consign the entire world to death for them—it had the Herald and she fucking died, it could have all fallen apart right then. There was no symbol, it had to become its own myth.
People...need to be shown something can be done, in order to do it. Not everyone, or no one would ever show them anything, but en masse. Someone has to be brave. Someone has to have a different idea. The idea that wins isn't always the best or the rightest, so it's sort of useful if the best or rightest ideas have a fighting chance.
[ Her voice is slightly horrified. Kitty's spent enough time mixing with thieves and prostitutes and other low sorts that she understands "fisting," but not nearly enough that profanity of that vileness doesn't shock her. But then Gwen goes on talking, which gives Kitty enough time to recover from her middle-class fluster; she goes on - ]
Well. I find that propaganda's more often used for wicked ends than for good ones.
We're not just talking about propaganda. ( impatiently. ) The fact propaganda exists is why this is important, not an argument to shut your eyes and be ignorant. There's never an argument to be ignorant. Much of the time, what we're discussing isn't at all deliberate, and much of the time, that makes it easy to take advantage of.
I mean, what sort of argument is that? "People are taken advantage of all the time, so it's better not to understand anything."
I do know next to nothing about you. Because you do the same thing every single person does, you choose what you show people. I'm not saying that you, personally, have to go out and become a propagandist. Or that you should drop whatever it is you're doing in order to concentrate instead on this. All I'm saying is that it does matter, and you seem very determined to just—
( a sound of frustration. )
Manipulating people with lies is bad! Yes! Understanding how that's done is useful. Someone should care!
You know plenty about me. I've been utterly forthcoming with you - you just haven't been very interested.
[ Then she takes a breath and tries to get her spike of irritation under control. Quieter, slower, more firmly: ]
Look, everything I know, I've had to fight to know, 'cause no one likes for a girl like me to be educated. So I don't like it when I get accused of being willfully ignorant. All right? Please don't say that, even if you're trying to prove a point, 'cause it really gets under my skin. And I do care how manipulation is done; I'm just saying that there's ways that you can live without doing it, and that it oughtn't be necessary.
I'm not dismissing you. Honestly, Gwen, this is what got us into that original argument in the first place. When I state my viewpoint, you immediately jump to oh, you're not listening to me. I can listen to you without gobbling up your opinions and agreeing with them.
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timeasmymeasure
no subject
Date: 2018-11-23 07:24 am (UTC)But where I'm from, they make everyone false, and corrupt everyone's natures. I wasn't any exception to that.
no subject
Date: 2018-11-23 07:26 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2018-11-23 07:30 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2018-11-23 07:32 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2018-11-23 07:36 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2018-11-23 07:37 am (UTC)I mean, if I can't change or do anything good, I don't know why you're still speaking to me.
no subject
Date: 2018-11-23 07:38 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2018-11-23 07:39 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2018-11-23 07:41 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2018-11-23 07:43 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2018-11-23 07:52 am (UTC)[ Also, who the hell is Darton, etc. ]
Anyway, I don't know, I'm not really all that fussed about it one way or the other. At the end of the day, I don't much care about the stories people tell; I care about what people do quite a bit more.
no subject
Date: 2018-11-23 07:59 am (UTC)( gwenaëlle. nevermind that, bethany isn't even here any more—not that she's paid enough heed to know it. moving on: )
That's what I'm saying, they're the same thing. Sometimes. Not all the time, obviously, people do actually lie and are fucking awful, but—look, when we're dead, that's all that's left. When you die, what people remember isn't...real, it isn't exact, it isn't...who you were. It's the story you told of yourself. Or it's the story that they told themselves about you. And we all do it, even if that isn't what we call it. Unless you're going up to every single person that you meet and explaining every single facet of yourself as a person to them, you're choosing what you show people.
And it matters. It does matter. Understanding that matters, because how people see things matters. It's so easy to undo the good someone does by having a better story. You can make people hurt themselves believing they don't have a choice, because something else is worse, something else you keep them too afraid to see past, and then they can't organise themselves, because there's no point. You can't counteract that without understanding it.
( it's at this point that gwenaëlle realises she's got slightly carried away, and clears her throat. )
That's just what I think. Anyway. Whatever.
no subject
Date: 2018-11-23 08:02 am (UTC)[ This isn't something Kitty cares about so much. But she can tell that Gwen does, and it's so rare that Gwen seems to care about anything that she'd have to be a real arsehole not to engage. So. ]
Wouldn't it be better if people didn't get remembered? If we focused on - you know - just keeping ideas alive, instead of memories of people?
no subject
Date: 2018-11-23 08:09 am (UTC)But that's—we don't have to focus on it. No one fucking focuses on it. ( the cussing is pure punctuation, at this point; she sounds rueful, if anything. she knows no one cares about this. she doesn't for a moment believe kitty is listening to her because she thinks this matters. ) It's not a thing that we make happen, it's natural, it's how people are, it's what happens. Whole religions form because people love a good fucking story. That's how ideas survive, people are how, people remember what other people taught them, they remember things that they saw, they act on those things. Someone's brave so a hundred other people are brave, too. The Herald died, and people kept coming to the Inquisition to fight because they had a symbol when the Inquisition didn't have much more than that. And they became what the Inquisition has.
I'm not arguing that it's important to do, or even that every single person has to care about it, it's just...something that's worth understanding, because it's better if someone does. If someone's thinking about it. And paying attention to it. If it's literally only me, that's fine, but just because it isn't what you're doing doesn't mean it isn't important. I can't do the things you do, either.
no subject
Date: 2018-11-23 08:13 am (UTC)[ Kitty chews a bit on her lower lip. All this is...awfully heady, awfully complex for her, though she'd sooner die than admit she can't keep up with something. ]
But also, empires crush people in the name of wicked men who created their own wicked legend. That's what happened at home.
no subject
Date: 2018-11-23 08:21 am (UTC)( OH MY GOD, GWEN. )
Telling stories isn't inherently good or bad, it's just...natural. And like anything, it can be twisted and abused, and that it is, constantly, is my point. It's hard to fight that if you don't understand how it's happening, if you've got nothing to say instead. That's why I started writing about the Inquisition in the first place, when I was doing that—the Inquisition isn't a super power, it doesn't have the kind of influence it needs to do its job, that's why it makes all of these bullshit concessions and compromises. Because it doesn't have a choice. It's one thing to bravely die for your own convictions, but it's a different thing entirely to consign the entire world to death for them—it had the Herald and she fucking died, it could have all fallen apart right then. There was no symbol, it had to become its own myth.
People...need to be shown something can be done, in order to do it. Not everyone, or no one would ever show them anything, but en masse. Someone has to be brave. Someone has to have a different idea. The idea that wins isn't always the best or the rightest, so it's sort of useful if the best or rightest ideas have a fighting chance.
no subject
Date: 2018-11-23 09:22 am (UTC)[ Her voice is slightly horrified. Kitty's spent enough time mixing with thieves and prostitutes and other low sorts that she understands "fisting," but not nearly enough that profanity of that vileness doesn't shock her. But then Gwen goes on talking, which gives Kitty enough time to recover from her middle-class fluster; she goes on - ]
Well. I find that propaganda's more often used for wicked ends than for good ones.
no subject
Date: 2018-11-23 09:27 am (UTC)I mean, what sort of argument is that? "People are taken advantage of all the time, so it's better not to understand anything."
no subject
Date: 2018-11-23 09:29 am (UTC)I hope you don't actually think I'm arguing that people ought to stay ignorant.
no subject
Date: 2018-11-23 09:30 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2018-11-23 09:32 am (UTC)If you think that - honestly think that - then you know nothing at all about me.
no subject
Date: 2018-11-23 09:35 am (UTC)( a sound of frustration. )
Manipulating people with lies is bad! Yes! Understanding how that's done is useful. Someone should care!
no subject
Date: 2018-11-23 09:39 am (UTC)[ Then she takes a breath and tries to get her spike of irritation under control. Quieter, slower, more firmly: ]
Look, everything I know, I've had to fight to know, 'cause no one likes for a girl like me to be educated. So I don't like it when I get accused of being willfully ignorant. All right? Please don't say that, even if you're trying to prove a point, 'cause it really gets under my skin. And I do care how manipulation is done; I'm just saying that there's ways that you can live without doing it, and that it oughtn't be necessary.
no subject
Date: 2018-11-23 09:41 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2018-11-23 09:44 am (UTC)(no subject)
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